It's about time someone stood up to this...

[Jake]

Stupid PC double standard BS. I hope it goes all the way to the SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States). Schools and the government in general have suppressed our rights long enough. As a law abiding citizen of the US I want ALL of my rights, if violated the 2nd amendment is there to protect them.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,260783,00.html

I don't advocate the use of violence against an officer of the law, but this man had the right to resist as these two officers had 0 right to enter his house.

www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007703140547

I'm tired of the government over stepping its bounds set forth by our founding fathers. I whole heartedly supported President Bush during his first 4 years of office, but this second have is an absolute joke.

We have 3 branches of government to keep the other in check.

*Executive, (President and about 5,000,000 workers)
Legislative (Senate and House of Representatives)
Judicial (Supreme Court and lower Courts).

Obviously the President has been pushing the buttons of the Legislative branch for some time now by extending the time that our troops must server over in the butt-crack of the world, just recently refusing to allow his staff to be subpoenaed, and today threatening to veto a bill that would require our troops to withdraw from Iraq by fall 2008.

I'm tired of seeing this country collapse on itself, from gay rights to illegal aliens, you name it we're caving in on it thanks to the liberal democrat party and all the peaceniks who think the rest of the world is a utopia and we should be too. If don't think that our country was founded on Christianity and firearms to defend it, go reread your history books.

The reason we broke away from Briton way back when was because of the religious situation of the time (if you don't know about it, go brush up on your history). Companies funded the initial colonies and eventually the colonies said they'd had enough of Briton's BS laws and such that were suppressing them. So what happened? This happened, the Declaration of Independence: www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
Which eventually lead to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

So the original Bill of Rights has 10 amendments:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The first two amendments are the most important that give us our freedoms and control of our government. Thanks to these two amendments we have the right to speak out and speak our minds. The second amendment is probably the most overlooked amendment that is being taken away from us by the people who want our country to be a utopia for them to have gay sex and all the other hideous crimes/sins you can think of. I absolutely think that the second amendment does NOT imply that guns are for the national guard, in fact, the national guard didn't even exist until 1903, 112 years AFTER the Bill of Rights. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.", a militia isn't the national guard, back then it was every able bodied male between the ages of 16 and 50 (I believe these are the correct ages, I might be wrong though).

The second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms as citizens of this great country. But tell me this, what the hell happened to that right down south during Katrina, the National Guard and police started confiscating people's weapons to "protect" them.

I will never just hand over my firearms to the government, they will have to pry them from my cold dead hands as a law abiding citizen. For those of you who don't know, I legally carry 24/7.
"Why?"
Because it's my right and it's my duty to protect myself and my loved ones.
"Oh, but you're paranoid that something is going to happen, just call 911, the cops will handle it."
Oh, does everyone have a cop that lives in their pocket and can be there in a split second when you beckon? Cause I know I sure don't.
"You wouldn't really pull the trigger and kill someone would you"
If my loved ones lives were in danger (rape, murder, kidnapping, etc...) or I was in danger, I absolutely would have 0 remorse for letting the hammer drop. What about you, what if some guy grabbed your little girl/boy and held you at knife/gun point, sliced you open and let you lay on the sidewalk to bleed to death... what now? Whats going to happen to your little girl/boy? Sure the police might find your child, maybe they'll find them naked face down dead in a ditch after they'd been raped/tortured, maybe they'd still be alive but with memories of torture and sexual abuse to live with for the rest of their lives, maybe they'd be found just around the corner alive safe and sound, maybe not.

I know there is no chance while my heart is still beating that I will ever let society disarm me and not give me a chance, even if it is only one 5 second period of time, to protect my loved ones. The day that happens, I will either be dead, living in the hills, or living in another country who respects my rights.

I can pray all I want for God to provide food that I can put on my table, but if I just sit around and wait for it to appear, it isn't going to happen, I will starve to death. Same thing here, I can pray all I want to keep my loved ones and I safe, but unless I do something about it... you get the point. God gave me my brain, my body, and my spirit, all of which I'm able to protect myself with.

Well, I'm done. If you read this whole thing, I applaud you. I probably wouldn't have. I'm just tired of society succumbing to minority America, the 1% who think they should be able to be married to the same sex. If you want to live in a society like that, move to Amsterdam, I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms and plenty of pot.

Ok I'm really done. This is by far my longest post ever.

</rant>

*http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/teacher_lessons/3branches/1.htm

[Headicus]

Wow... great post jake

I'm in 100% agreement! It makes me both sad and very angry to see how the liberal mindset is destroying America as we know it. And unfortunately it seems like the voting masses are incapable of independent thought and just eat up the fodder thats fed to them by the media. Its things like this and the stories i hear on the news that just piss me off.

I could go on forever but i'd just be echoing what jake said, and i don't have enough time to write it all.

-andy

I seriously wonder what the current government's reaction would be for someone to actually organize a local militia. I bet they would be rounded up and thrown in jail for disturbing the peace! or being a "gang".

[Jake]

As a matter of fact they would. I don't remember exactly what law states it, I believe it is in the Patriot Act that says that training a group (more than 1 person) with firearms is illegal.

The voting thing... yes, I'll be touching on that later.

[Jake]

So voting... Voting has become a media feeding frenzy. It's like it's a consumer product that everyone is advertising for, trying to get you to buy their product. Seriously, what part of voting for the person you believe in, the one who closely echoes your beliefs, etc... do people not understand? The person you think will have a chance to change things to the way you think they should be done. As from my understanding, they represent US, not the other way around.

How many times have you heard someone say, "Oh, how was it they (tv commercial, radio ad, etc...) told us to vote?" Honestly, Ashley said this when talking with her mom, my blood instantly boiled, I about went off on the both of them. But, like always I kept my mouth shut. What part of making your own decision(s) and not what other people tell you do you not understand? By no means am I trying to be sexist, but I find that the majority of the female population (and more amd more of the male today also) don't understand what happened for you to be able to voice your opinion and vote. PEOPLE DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM, YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE. If it wasn't for our soldiers in WW2, we'd probably be speaking German or Japanese right now. Like the saying goes:

If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If its in English, thank a soldier.

People don't understand what really happened. Its hard to put a face on death stats, but each one of those people had a family, each one just wanted to come back home. The ones that came home, they were just lucky, most of their buddies were probably rolling around dead in the surf at Iwo Jima and Omaha. They are the ones that paid the ultimate sacrifice for YOU, so that you could live at home, sit on your couch and eat Cheeto's or go to the mall and go buy a $100+ purse to keep your wardrobe in and show it off to your friends.

What will it take to get everyone to open their eyes and see what's really going on around them. The bullshit that the media is feeding them, the gay rights groups who want to be able to have the same status as a married man and woman whom were married under the watchful eyes of Christ. You go and tell the parents whose son died in battle that he died so that you could go bend your "partner" over and have "married" sex. Hell, I wouldn't even call it sex. It's sick and wrong on so many levels.

So yes, voting, back on subject Has everyone see the Hillary Clinton video on youtube yet? Here's the link if you haven't seen it:
youtube.com/watch?v=6h3G-lMZxjo
If she gets into office, wow, its going to be like City 17 in HL2. Hope everyone has brushed up on their gravity gun skills!

So yes, thats the end of my rant for the night.

</rant>

[Jonathan]

Hmm i think i take a bit of a different view on this,
I know that our country is not the Church, and God's message is to all people, He calls us to live a different way of life then what is normal. As far as that is reflected in how we live in America you should read this book:
Mere Discipleship: Radical Christianity in a Rebellious World By Lee Camp
It certainly made me open my eyes up to the fact that we can't be american christians, because we are first called to be Christians. There is no nation that is loved or supported by God, nor is there any form of government that is favored by God, because nation/government both are systems put in place by mankind to rule their fellows. Anyways if any of you all read this let me know there is a ton of good Biblically supported ideas about politics in it and I will gladly come home for a weekend and take you out to a meal to talk about it.

[Jake]

I agree, our country is not the Church, however one of the original colonies (can't remember which one off the top of my head) was based around the church. I'm not sure if I agree with how this is worded

we can't be american christians

I think its a matter of phrasing. I do agree we are called to be Christians first (God, Country, Family, Self) and I think that the 2nd in the list can be moved to the back if necessary (depends on the individual and circumstances). If I were called upon to serve my country and leave my family to go fight, I would do it in a heart beat, but I don't feel called at this time to go and do so.

[Jonathan]

I don't see how that would agree with Christ telling us to turn the other cheek, even if we have the right to keep and bear arms, why then would the apostle be told not to fight back when Jesus is taken in the garden of gethsemene?
I guess the difficulty comes in saying, when should we defend those we love violently? or is there ever a time that violence is needed?

[Jake]

Turning the other cheek, I believe that it was meant for wrong doings unto others, but trying to take another's life is a whole other ordeal. Cursing someone or slandering against them is what I interpret it to mean.

Jesus had other agendas that weren't to be changed by man during his life time, he knew that some things had to be done, without the interference of the apostles.

Defending one's life against attack isn't a matter of violence, it's a matter of life or death. I believe if the Lord was to have me leave this earth at a certain time, no firearm or weapon could save me. But until then, I will protect myself from violent people until the Lord decides to take me.

[Headicus]

This is an interesting argument, and to tell you the truth, i lean more to jake's side of the argument that should some one attack up, we have the right to defend ourselves.

I immediately think of Romans 12:18

Romans 12:18 (NIV)
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Like pat is always saying "Peace at any cost is not a Christian principle"

as far as owning a bearing arms check out Luke 22:36

Luke 22:36 (NIV)
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Jesus looks like he was for his disciples carrying weapons to defend themselves.


Anyways.. i'm still researching biblical examples of self-defense and no self-defense arguments
Here are some interesting articles i've found (Disclaimer - i haven't checked the validity of these articles)

Anti Self-Defense
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/776

Self-Defense
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442
www.gac.20m.com/self-def.htm
www.gac.20m.com/pratt_Bible_guncontrol.htm

[Jake]

Thanks Andy, I couldn't remember where that verse was located:

Luke 22:36 (NIV)
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

And I think Exodus 22:2 is pretty clear too, as found at www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442

Exodus 22:2 (NIV)
If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.
A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft.

Though this pertains more to breaking and entering someone's house at night.

[Jonathan]

In response to Luke I would point out that they are to own a sword, not to use it, I was wrong if I said it is ungodly to own weapons, i merely thing it is wrong to use them to kill other people.
Also Jake mentions that we turn our other cheek in response to verbal persecution, i don't know why we would limit it only to that when it says in Matthew 5:38-42

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you

What does it mean to resist?
–verb (used with object)
1. to withstand, strive against, or oppose: to resist infection; to resist temptation.
2. to withstand the action or effect of: to resist spoilage.
3. to refrain or abstain from, esp. with difficulty or reluctance: They couldn't resist the chocolates.
It is a very physical thing, but also includes the verbal component as you can strive against the idea of another person as well.
Also, "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." strike is a physical action at least in my mind, but after thinking more on it I could see someone striking at you with words, such as sarcasm which means "to cut" as we use words to cut others down.

The next verse Matt: 43-48 says:

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

What does it mean to love your enemies, surely it does not mean to cut them down, to destroy them, to kill them? I just don't see how it is loving to cut down the intruder in your house rather then perhaps drop to your knees and pray for their soul? what will they do kill you at best? Remember Phil:21
"21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."
We should not try and kill ourselves, but if we die it is to our own gain.

Also, Do you think when Jesus telling them to buy a sword he is telling them to be prepared for when he comes back again because in revelations 1:12-16 it says:

"12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

Notice when Christ comes back, there will be a very real physical battle yet at this time our fight is against the principalities and powers, not specific people such as it says in Eph. 6:12

2 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

but of course let us take that in context because he is talking about arming yourself with the armor of God. Here is the whole section:

0Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

Notice two things, No piece of the armor of God is a weapon except the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Thus our weapon is the bible . As well Paul says to pray that words may be given to him so that he will speak fearlessly, I think cowardice in speaking God's truth to people is something that occurs much more than a person getting attacked, I know for me it is.

In the end it is enjoyable to have this theological discussion but in the end we really just need to make sure that we are making wise choices, choose good over evil, and living our lives loving others, even those we don't want to.

All my quotes are from www.biblegateway.com/ and are part of the NIV translation.

[Jonathan]

Also if you quote exodus 22:2 form your own opinions based on what you have read in the bible not the opinions of a conservative opinionated man who is using his site more as a blog then a source of news. Remember to take everything you find online with a grain of salt so to say

as google says:
World Net Daily, also known as WND, is a conservative online news site.

Christians aren't conservative, or liberal, they are Christians and should take a biblically supported view on all aspects of life "as far as it depends on you"
btw love that quote Andy

Romans 12:18 (NIV)
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Also sorry for the long, and double post i didn't think about questioning Joseph Farah until I realized he wasn't a biblical scholar.

[Jake]

I totally understand where you're coming from Jon, and I should have said this in the beginning. I don't think a lot of people are fit to own or carry a firearm, nor should they be forced to be. Then there are people like this:

www.wdsu.com/news/11533664/detail.html

That are not in the right mind to carry a firearm, let alone a Bible that carries the Word of God. Patrick last week was telling us at the membership class about a pastor he was talking to who (correct me if I get this wrong Andy) didn't believe the Bible was the literal Word of God, and that statistically over 40% of pastors believe what that guy does. How scary is that? A man is preaching to you something that he doesn't believe with his whole heart.

By no means was I forming my opinion based on what was on that site, I honestly looked at the first paragraph (if even that) of each one of those sites and that was it. I couldn't even tell you what they said right now. But I would take it more seriously if it was from a conservative website than a liberal one. And even saying that is a stretch, because I don't think politics should mix with our belief in God, but I do believe that God should mix with politics. In that case I see the more conservative/Republican oriented in the things we believe.

The liberal segment of the US population is absolutely destroying this country. It has turned voting into a consumer like product that has to be advertised for people to do it. If someone doesn't want to vote, don't force a voter's registration card down their throat so that they can have you tell them how to vote.

I do believe that Christianity played a very large role in the foundation of this country, and the more and more liberal groups that try and change things for "equality" and "fairness" are turning the country away from the foundation that has held it together. I think this country in 20 years will be culturally destroyed and it will pretty much be chaos, that is if the country hasn't already fallen.

Back to the original discussion... regarding Luke, what would be the purpose of owning a sword if not for defense? By no means was it meant for sporting or display. I guess I just don't see the purpose of a sword if not used for defense. I mean, what's the purpose of having a lock on your front door? I'm sure you lock your door when you leave your place or go to bed. A lock is a defense against intrusion/theft, as is a sword/firearm against one's life. I wouldn't bat at eye before letting the hammer drop on someone who threatened my life or the life of a loved one. If just the motion of clearing holster or seeing the gun caused someone to decide to stop what they're doing and flee, fine by me. Ultimately it is their decision.

Exodus 22:2 speaks about defending one's life in the middle of the night.

Exodus 22:2 (NIV)
If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.
A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft.

I think it really speaks a lot about not being guilty of murder in defense of one's life.

Anyway, I need to get to bed.

Thanks for the discussion Jon, I like it when things stay civil, its nice to be able to discuss something online and not argue with a 12 year old who really doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

[Jonathan]

I'm about to head to dinner so I'll make it short.
As adamant as I am about the non-violence and non-self defense I honestly think this is a very hard teaching and it is completely counter-cultural and contrary to our natural values. As such I have had a hard time and don't even fully except it but I am yet to find strong biblical support for self-defense so I thank you guys for giving me those pieces of scripture to mule over.

Also, i agree with Jake, I don't feel hostile or like this hurts our friendship, and shoot after posting on here i went through 100 shells at the shooting range so how the heck am i supposed to justify that lol But then again i wasn't shooting a person and killing animals and eating them is definitely biblical.

Thanks to all you guys for challenging the way you and other live and percieve the gospel, so long as we never stop doing that I think it is a big step in being a Christian, as well we are to talk about spiritual things so why not use our words for something that will benefit us

[Jake]

And I must thank you too Jon, the little looking up things in the Bible I did definitely was a step forward for me. I can honestly say that this is probably 1 of a few tops I've actually cracked my Bible open for to find out what the Scripture says. I'm sure we could beat this topic dead 10x over, but one thing I think I see clearly is that EVERYONE is different, feels different, and thinks different from what others think/believe. We are all built slightly different, so our "natural/instinctual" values/thoughts differ slightly.

Ugh... back to doing laundry I can't wait for our next topic.

[Jake]

This is becoming more and more common. 31 people dead because they couldn't defend their lives, which are now gone because some crazy guy decided to shoot some people up.